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100 Questions About Anime & Manga Overseas Special Issue: Fansubs and the Gloom of the Anime Industry - Part 2
AnimeAnime recently started a series called "100 Questions About Anime & Manga Overseas", where Japanese fans send in their questions about the foreign Anime and Manga scene. One of the questions asked was "How is the Quality of a Fansub's Translation, and the Translator's Skill?". AnimeAnime has posted a special 2-part follow-up to that article, titled "Fansubs and the Gloom of the Anime Industry." In Part 1, Romi (the writer) talks about the history of fansubs, and how the growth of internet affected the fandom in general. In Part 2, Romi talks about how some fansubbers defend their actions. (Note: Romi's self introduction can be found in Part 1. If the readers read this article without knowing Romi's background, they might think the article is unfair and slanted against the fansub community. Romi represents the anime industry.) Who is this "Romi" who answers these questions? Her self introduction:
Special Issue: Fansubs and the Gloom of the Anime Industry - Part 2 Last time, I talked about the history of fansubs. This time, I will take a look at the insistences of the fansubbers. The Public Stance and the Reality of Fansubs Why are the fansubbers making these "illegal" fansubs? How do they feel about it? Don't the fans who watch fansubs feel guilty? An approximate of their insistence is below. Fansubs is Not the Kind of Bootlegs that Aims to Make a Profit Many fansubbers are often insists that "We are not working for money, we are working for the fans, and we are contributing to promote the titles." And, "If these titles are licensed, we'll stop the fansubs as soon as possible." If the titles are spread once, they can never be retrieved. They will remain somewhere on the web forever. Fansubs Have Higher Quality Some fansubbers blame the quality of the licensed version, but as I said before, I can't agree to it. The works of some groups are pretty bad in quality. They have many mistranslations, mistakes in grammar, over-stuffing of phrases, and bad timing. Their quality is so far from the quality of the licensed version. Some fans would say, "but some are good."; however, some fansubbers are making rough work, and it makes all fansubs an obstacle to the anime industry. Also, the very enthusiastic fans tend to disapprove the modifications of any Japanese peculiarity in a story or situation, especially in comedies. For the scenes that fans do not understand because of cultural differences, there is no choice but to change them. Fansubbers include explanations in such scenes, and they think it makes it high in quality. The fans who watch it can't understand Japanese, so how can they confirm if the explanation is correct or not? The trust fans place on a fansubber's explanation has a lot of risk. Japanese Fans are Watching Anime for Free, Why Can't We Do the Same? Anime is not free in Japan. The sponsorship or the income from advertisement makes the terrestrial broadcasting TV programs free to watch. Fans need to pay to watch satellite broadcasting and cable TV. The costs of creating an anime are paid by proceeds of the DVD or related products, and there are many areas in Japan that the titles are not broadcasted. The fans that live in such areas have to buy or borrow the DVD, just like the fans in the U.S. The Licensers Often Release Only Dubbed Version, Or They Edit and Change the Contents Some titles' stories are changed, images are edited, and the subtitled version isn't released. It's because of the necessary adaptation to the market, and to appeal to a more general audience, not to mention except for kid's titles, such cases are decreasing now. The licensers know that the fans dislike modifications, and some of them are releasing uncut versions to the enthusiastic fans. Before, the well-intentioned companies had also provided the subtitled version, despite their unpredictability. But the dubbed versions have sold more copies than the subtitled one, because the general American consumers prefer the dubbed version. Nowadays, anime are sold on DVD, and fans can select switch between dub and subtitle, so this problem has been solved. The Licensers Use Fansubs as a Research Tool of the Market Some companies definitely deny this. If fansubs are spread, how can they expect good sales on even the popular titles? I heard there is an unwritten rule which says that fans should buy the licensed version of their favorite fansub titles, but nobody can say if this rule is working. The Licensors Don't Publish the Titles Even after a Long Time Has Passed since They Get the License What about the rule of "If the title is licensed, the fansubber has to stop delivering it"? Nobody Has Ever Been Prosecuted, Fansubbers are Connived This problem has not been brought to court before, but it doesn't mean that the fansubs is connived. Most licensers can't afford to take countermeasures against fansubs. The licensers prefer applying their budgets, time, and manpower to get one more license, localization, and promotions rather than lawsuits. Still, I have to say that fansubs damages the industry. Arguments about this issue go around on the internet every day. The damages done to the anime industry is a problem that is hard to understand for fans, and arguments often became flame wars. In many cases, the fans are also supporters of fansubs. I can also understand their reasoning, so I feel sad when I see them quarrel on the forums. Why do they have to fight? Both blamers and supporters are digging their heels in. For many years, the endless arguments go on without any conclusion. I was going to talk about the counter measures and attitudes of the industry. But this issue is already too long, so I'll talk about them in the next issue. To be continued. See you again. 100 Questions About Anime & Manga Overseas Special Issue: Fansubs and the Gloom of the Anime Industry - Part 1 Translated by T. Ohara Extra: |
Manga Zombie
Finale: Panelosophy
An ongoing conversation about the philosophy behind manga both in the U.S. and abroad. Manga Ranking
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This article is a bunch of
This article is a bunch of bullshit. While some of it is true, most of it is unsupported.
This is what I call a "Unfounded critic"
I'm really sorry, but Romi's explanation about fansub's quality is a big lie. He must not know that several groups have great quality that beat just every aspect of licensed version.
Many encoded versions of some titles are better than shown in Japan's TV due to some heavy and appropriated use of filters. We can even enjoy better video quality than some DVDs.
Not only that, this "bad timing" Romi says is the main thing that kick licensed's version ass. All those DVDs have horrible timing not to mention when they just miss the translation.
As for translation, the licensed version often ocidentilizes dialogues, causing the great loss to the story, not to mention the HORRIBLE DUBactors that just screws the show pretty much.
One thing that pretty much enhances fansub's version (and can be one of the main reasons people choose fansub version) is the TRANSLATION NOTES (those note that appear at top screen explaining puns, for example), the typeset (mass translation and design of kanji that appear during the show, like signs) and karaoke special effects. I'm not saying licensed version should do the same... it would be innovating the whole MOVIE/Cinema/Animation industry, because no one edits the subtitle so far... It's too complicated and too customized.
All I can say is that this Romi guy doesn't know a thing about fansubs and is trying to criticize something telling great lies. But don't misunderstand me, I'm not agreeing with piracy, I'm only saying contracting the lies exposed.
It's time the anime industry became aware of the real problem and understand that fighting fansubs require great skills and intelligence. Should you wish to exterminate fansub, hire the experts who works for it, develop a bloody TVstation that serializes the anime in U.S (and please don't censor - only because some characters are gay etc - nor screw them by making such poor dub. Subtitle them! And offer an option for those wish to see it Dubbed in TV. Anyone heard of SAP buttom??). Be smart ¬¬ for Christ sake... anyone heard about Marketing Research? Know your consumer????????? This is very lame...
OH PUHLEEZE! If I could get
OH PUHLEEZE! If I could get the anime at a decent price here, or even reliably get the anime I'd not be dling it. But hell at THREE episodes per disc and about 25 bucks a disc even a short series is prohibitively expensive. Maybe on reason sales are dropping is because prices are rising, 161 USD for a 26 episode series is a bit much.
As far as trusting the subber goes.. I've seen some horrible spelling and mistranslations in the pro subs, all YYH fans can point those out! And whats up with Geneon's continued misspelling of Morikawa Toshiyuki's name in the Kyo Kara Maoh credits?
As far as hacking up the series goes, namely One Piece, for SHAME! I'm an adult, I can monitor what my child watches and I can appreciate something that has more creativity and depth than Scooby Doo.
Personally I prefer to have the jokes explained rather than have them rewritten or ignored, that's part of the fun of exploring other cultures :banghead:
>>This article is a bunch of
>>This article is a bunch of bullshit. While some of it is true, most of it is unsupported.
Agree. This article is way too bias. It really feels extremely unprofessionally written from a non-objective point of view, plus it's filled with unsupported statements throughout.
I think... If there weren't
I think... If there weren't fansubs, most of us wouldn't even be watching anime.
>> But hell at THREE
>> But hell at THREE episodes per disc and about 25 bucks a disc even a short series is prohibitively expensive.
True, considering you can get an entire season of American TV for $40-60, anime is way too expensive. But don't think it's any cheaper in Japan. Just for comparison, let's look at the Eureka Seven volume 2 on Amazon. The Japanese version has episodes 3-6 and is on sale for 4926 yen ($42). That's about $10.50 per episode. The retail price is 6300 yen ($54), or $13.50/episode. In contrast, the American DVD has episodes 6-10 for $18.99, or $3.80/episode. Even at retail, it's still only $5/episode.
Food for thought.
Another thing occurred to
Another thing occurred to me. Sometimes Japanese anime distributors put limits on the American distributors' pricing and episode inclusion because of the problems with Japanese importing the cheaper American DVD's. I think this famously happened with Gantz's 2-episode discs.
>>True, considering you can
>>True, considering you can get an entire season of American TV for $40-60, anime is way too expensive. But donât think itâs any cheaper in Japan.
You really can't compare. If you have bought (or seen at least) any region 2 dvds from Japan, the quality Japanese dvd encoding supress that of American by a lot. Not to mention they are starting to release in HD DVD more often now. It's a technology that we have yet to adapt (at least it's still relatively uncommon from what I see). If you're up for quality, I feel that it's worth the price. In comparison, I didn't think Americans anime-dvds are expensive either. Especially since ADV (or maybe other as well, but they have yet to caught my attention) has started releasing the thin packs where you can get the entire series (of 26 episode) for $80CAD (only coz Im in canada) and a 52 episode for slightly under $120... (Although, you get what you pay for, don't expect Japanese-DVD-quality or even the quality you get in the more complete version they release with $30/DVD for 4 episodes).
>>I think⦠If there
>>I think⦠If there werenât fansubs, most of us wouldnât even be watching anime.
Actually, I think that it's the complete opposite. If anime wasn't translated/dubbed into English and broadcast on TV, forget watching, I don't think as many people would know what anime IS. ;-)
Anime would still be an underground hobby for few that it once was. The industry has rapidly expanded, because the fanbase has expanded as well. Alot of exposure comes from TV. How many fans first started watching anime with Sailor Moon, Dragon Ball Z, or Pokemon?? :3
Remember, the first article
Remember, the first article proved that this person doesn't really know anything. It claimed that the goal of ALL groups was speed.
>The fans who watch it canât understand Japanese, so how can they confirm if the explanation is correct or not? The trust fans place on a fansubberâs explanation has a lot of risk.
I love this. Amatuer translators are just as trustworthy as professional--just because somebody got certified as a translator doesn't mean they are good. Engrish.com is proof enough of that.
Most of the complaints on
Most of the complaints on both sides of this issue apply to manga and scanlations as well, which is more relevant to my own interests.
If true, I find it particularly egregious that the Japanese studios and publishers are jumping the gun on licensing in order to short-circuit fansubbers and scanlators, producing long delays in official translated releases. Some series have good delivery times, however, so it's obviously a mixed bag.
As for the chicken-or-egg debate over whether TV or the Net has had more influence on bringing anime to the American masses, most authoritative histories that Iâve read credit the pre-Internet local fan groups with producing and distributing the first translations. These groups gained much wider connectivity with the introduction of the Net, and their influence was eventually felt by TV stations. However, now that there are anime movies by major American studios and authorized dubbed anime all over TV, more people are probably being introduced to it that way than by the Net. So in that sense, both sides are right.
I continue to harp on the question of why either the Japanese or their other-language licensees donât release translated anime and manga from their official web sites for a fee set somewhere between free (which is what itâs costing for fansubs and scanlations) and the cost of the DVDâs or paperbacks. The Internet isnât going to go away; itâs time for them to cut their losses and take advantage of it.
How many fans first started
That was me about seven or eight years ago when my daughter was little. I got hooked by watching Pokemon with her. lol
I think the article is a bit bogus. Personally, I love fansubs and scanlations. For me, it's like a preview to look at to see if I want to dump the Big Bucks on a DVD/manga set, (like some have mentioned - long anime/manga series ARE very cost prohibitive! There's no way I'll ever get a set of Inu or Kenshin, for example. DVD or manga lol).
At any rate, I have several anime/manga that I've bought the licensed versions of that I'd already seen the fansub/scanlation. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who likes to have the actual hard copy in hand.
ah, i started watching anime
ah, i started watching anime and reading manga over 10 years ago. it's crazy to see how it's expanded!!
all i can say is... i find it hard that major companies aren't looking to see which fansubs are most popular to see what to buy.
also, if i really like a series (i'm more of a manga fan) i'll buy the japanese manga to read if the english isn't published if i really enjoy the scanlations. then if the english comes out i sell my japanese copies and get english (sometimes i do keep both, though, as i like to get the feel of the characters in japanese more). what i don't understand is why it's $10 USA a volume as opposed to the 360 Yen it is in japan. isn't that a HUGE increase?? shonen jump/viz did a good lob releasing manga at $6-$7 a pop, but i still want to see that 360 yen in the end, or $1 at book-off is nice, too.
in all, most people i know think i'm crazy for spending money. but, i remember when it was $35 for a subbed tape of ranma with 2 episodes, and ranma manga at $17.95 a pop. things have come down, hopefully they will continue to.
2003 is a long time ago.
2003 is a long time ago. Fansubbing has evolved beyond scope. New groups pop up every so often. It's not like this one article is going to stop me from doing what I enjoy.
Actually, I think that
>>Actually, I think that
>>Actually, I think that itâs the complete opposite. If anime wasnât translated/dubbed into English and broadcast on TV, forget watching, I donât think as many people would know what anime IS.
I think that's somewhat true for me too. I'm not as much an anime fan as a manga fan, so I really don't have the entire schedule of what's airing in Japan every season on my head. I download fansubs/raws (depending on how eager I'm to watch a series), and relatively not a lot either, usually i preview an episode of most series in each season and only end up sticking to 2 or 3 in the end, and I always buy what I like if it's licensed. However, there's no way I would be buying any anime if it werent' for fansubs, simply because anime is an expensive investment (in comparison to manga where I can afford to buy random series in Japanese/english), so I really want to make sure that I like the series before I purchase it. I'm pretty sure that most people who watch fansubs and actually does buy their anime share my POV.
(Now, can someone license Aria The Animation already? :o )
>so donât be giving me
>so donât be giving me quality bullcrap Ms Romi.
Are you one of those people who yells at the newspaper/radio/TV set a lot?
Hmmm... The problem with
Hmmm... The problem with this article is that it's way too biased, for an article that is meant to explain a different culture. Rather than only stating the author's opinions on fansubs, it should explain the fansub scene in detail, show the pros and cons, and only then state the author's views.
And while fansubs/scanlations are illegal, pirating and all, they probably do have some pros - like hype for certain serieses (best example would be Naruto - isn't the internet hype the reason for it's huge popularity at the states?), creating more fans eager to buy stuff, and so on.
I live in a far away place
I live in a far away place from the US. Somewhere in the Asian region. Yes, I'm nearer to Japan than most of you guys. Well, unfortunately nearer doesn't mean that I get such anime titles in licensed format more easily. In fact, there are less licensed anime here compared to those licensed in the US or other Eu countries. They are priced dearly. So, my only hope are the fansubs. Licensed titles in my country are even less favorable because it's often dubbed, while some others are subbed. Ppl in my country prefer subbed ones because the dub quality is very poor. (as another preference, we are not used to watching English-dubbed shows aswell).
I also buy imported anime stuff, such as figures and such from Japan. I think, it's a big BS that anime industries are damaged by fansubs financial-wise, because they can still make good profits from other things than the anime videos, such as royalties from goods selling, and the royalties from TV stations in countries outside Japan which decide to air the show because in their country the demand for that particular show is increasing (I am positive, it's also a big thanks to the fansubs for making such hype). I think it's all good the way it is now. Shutting down fansub groups are plain stupid, and I'm sure, Japan ppl don't really care about fansubbers. It's the US or EU licensors which are very vocal about this lately. Sorry for my bad English. >_
You made your point just
You made your point just fine Koru. It's pretty much what I've been saying, a lot of people want their anime and manga online. I bet there's a price that most people would pay for good quality product.
As for shutting fansub and scanlation sites down, it can't be done. If there is a market, it will be available, regardless of how much money studios and publishers spend on legal fees.
However, it wouldn't be wise to deprive artists and their media channels of too much income. It's the same in the music industry. There is no free lunch, sooner or later nobody is going to devote the time and energy to creative efforts if they can't make a living at it.
The obvious way for creators of all types to maintain control of their art and still make a living at it is to release their authorized versions online for a reasonable fee.
My favorite thing about this
My favorite thing about this article is this paragraph:
It's so easy to turn around: the official releases of some companies "are pretty bad in quality". Some companies would say, "but some are good"; however, some companies "are making rough work", and it makes all licensors "an obstacle to the anime industry". :P
I believe the logical fallacy here would be converse accident, also known as hasty generalization.
Part II
Anyway, man... I'm not gonna say and explain every single solution I come up with to someone who doesn't even understand his enemy. All I said before is just glimpse of the real BIG problem. If you add Europe, Latin America and Asia (mainly Russia) piracy over anime, I'll be surprised XD
I suggest you take 1 month vocation and confine yourself in front of a computer. Became a fansub staff for the major (and quality groups) choose two kinds of them: DVD releasers and AIRCASTING releasers. Also search the net tiressly over and over again until you can't feel your eyes blinking. Then you should know a little bit more
question
it's true, most fansub groups like shinsen-corp have reallllyy bad quality, it's just that you guys don't know it.
you guys don't know japanese so you don't know if the fansub groups are really doing a good job or not
but on the other hand, there are just a few fansub groups like
eclipse productions
they should sell anime on itunes
Fansub debate
This place has become more or less a fansub debate on the forums which as described by Romi an endless argument without any conclusion.
I would have no problem
I would have no problem buying the licensed anime if it wasn't soooo expensive. That is the primary reason I don't buy it, not becuase I can get it online, or that the dubbed versions suck, or even because they hack the snot out of some series it's because it's almost 30 bucks for like 3 episodes, uh no! And isn't a younger crowd the main demographic for this industry, do they think we're made of money?!?!, most of us aren't old enough to have a job yet. I will keep watching anime online until the prices become reasonable, plus I'm sure if fansubs online become no more we'll find different ways to get free anime. So there! =P